While Gary Crous (below) was preaching against Jehovah Witnesses in Pietermaritzburg, telling them to “Repent you evil wicked sinners, who hand out these things that say Jesus is not God. Jesus is God manifested in the flesh, my friends”. I was doing the weekly tract outreach organised by my church just 50 meters from it, except that this time I was all alone but was surrounded by about 10 Jehovah Witnesses who were also distributing tracts and evangelising people.
It was very disappointing to see Jehovah Witnesses, who don’t have the truth but heresy, going out in numbers to evangelise people, while a notice was included in my church’s weekly bulletin that there will be an outreach and believers are encouraged to attend, yet people didn’t show up. The fact that Jehovah Witnesses were there, even bringing their own kids, while none of my Baptist brothers and sisters were there was very disappointing, especially since the spot we use is just a couple of meters away from our church. Our pastor once told of a visit he got from Jehovah Witnesses, and how he rebuked them for their heresy, yet they rebuked him for the fact that none of his parishioners evangelise.
I quickly realised that I needed to evangelise these Jehovah Witnesses, and I spoke to a nice and likeable guy called Barry. He is in his 40s and was born and raised a Jehovah Witness, and I gave him an opportunity to explain his religion to me and how it differs from Christianity. He told me that there’s no hell, and people get annihilated after death. But I used the opportunity to show him in his own bible (New World Translation) that there is hell, at least the lake of fire as he disputed if Sheol, Hades and Gehenna should be translated as hell, and that all who break God’s Law will find themselves in that lake (see Revelations 21:8). He tried to look in his tracts (very well written tracts I must say) but he couldn’t find a refutable argument or verse he could bring against what I showed him in the bible. He told me that the book of Revelations is not literal, but I also showed him that Jesus Himself also preached about the lake of fire, and he acknowledged that the bible does preach about such a place. He was very disturbed when he became aware of what I showed him, and I could see that he was having trouble digesting this truth. He quickly ended the conversation, but asked for my phone numbers so we can meet again and discus this issue further. I hope to meet him again this week, so I can show him the truth about Jehovah and His Son Jesus Christ, and hope that he can be rescued from this cult. He left immediately afterwards, and I was left with more Jehovah Witnesses to speak to.
I went to speak to two ladies in their late 20s, also Jehovah Witnesses, holding all kinds of tracts they distribute, dealing with all kinds of issues and questions that people have. I asked them what they think happens when people die, and they quickly drew a tract called “Would you like to know the Truth?” that denies the existence of an after-life, and says “At death, humans cease to exist” and they quote Ecclesiastes 9:5 and Psalm146:3-4. As soon as I wanted to use their bible to show them what the bible really says, they told me that we needed to meet again so we can discuss the issue further, so they took my phone numbers and promised to meet with me again this week.
I learned few things from these conversations with Jehovah Witnesses, one of them being that good tracts are a necessity, not just tracts that show a person how to be saved but also those that answer questions that most people struggle against. Jehovah Witnesses are equipped with enough tracts that provide answers that an average person in the streets will bring up, even though we know that those answers are heresy. This made me aware that we really need to put a lot of work on tracts, and have all different kinds of tracts dealing with different situations and questions that people have. Which is why I’m excited that Gary and Lungisa are working on a couple of tracts, while I’m also always working on new ideas for tracts. I also realised that a printing press should be a medium term goal that we need to work towards if we are to reach the masses with the Gospel.
The most important lesson I learned while speaking to Jehovah Witnesses is that they are winnable for Christ. The first impression we have of Jehovah Witnesses is that they are heretics (which is true) whose aim in life is to bring to fruition Satan’s plan on earth, but some of them are genuinely lost people who really need the Gospel truth so they can be rescued from this cult. I think we also have the same impression of Muslims – that they can’t be saved because they are so deep in their cults, but the Gospel has the power to save any man regardless of whatever cult they are involved in. People involved in cults are brainwashed, and the Gospel truth is the only tool you can use to bring them to light, and Jehovah Witnesses or Muslims are not different. I realised that I shouldn’t avoid them, but I should rather gently and respectfully show them what their own bibles say about Christ, hell and salvation.
We think that the New World Translation has been perfectly MIS-translated so it can suit Jehovah Witnesses’ theology but it’s not, and there are still a lot of bible verses that are not tainted by their agenda. The worst thing that could ever happen to a Jehovah Witness is to show him that his own bible is against his belief, and that’s what I saw happen to Barry. During the early moments of our conversation, I wanted to show him that his bible is mistranslated and rather we should use the KJV bible (which I had), but I realised that we would just debate an issue that will get us nowhere since we are both not Greek or Hebrew scholars. And that worked out perfectly because I ended up using his bible to show him the truth. I believe it’s about time we start believing in the Word of God that it’s powerful enough to save any man, Jehovah Witness or not, and go to where they are in the streets and evangelise them.
Of course I had to undo the damage they had done to one soul who was their victim. There was a young Zimbabwean Muslim man who was distributing tracts from a sangoma (witch doctor) who promises to heal everything from Aids to sexual problems. They had given him their tracts to read, and told him that it’s compatible with the Quran. I told this young man that these Jehovah Witnesses are liars and he shouldn’t believe anything they said, but I also told him that his sangoma boss is also a wicked man and that his own religion (Islam) warns him against getting involved in witchcraft. I used the Quran to show him that Muslims recognise the Ten Commandments, and whether he had obeyed them or not, and warned that he needed to repent from his sins or face eternity in hell.
Pray for Barry so God can convict him and show him that he is involved in a cult, as I am about to meet him this week.
Edited: New World Translation instead of New Living Translation
emeth said
Did you know that the KJV is used for a long time by the Jehovah’s Witnesses? And that the Watchtower Bible and Tract Society even printed KJV bibles in the past?
The material (plates) to print the KJV were bought by them in 1942 from the company A. J. Holman in Philadelphia (Pennsylvania)
Besides their NWT they use a lot of different bibletranslations.
But ask yourself ,.. why is it that members from your church were not present to do their evangelising work together with you? How can it be that in your opinion a true religion (yours) cant produce the fruits and follow the command of Jesus to reach out to people and tell them his message of Good News?
Is it a lack of faith? Is the holy spirit not working among your brothers and sisters?
Jehovah’s Witnesses have at least 7.7 million people in 236 countries and territories around the globe who go out at least once a week, totally volunteering their own time and money to find people who are thirsty for what they think is the ‘truth’.
Jehovah’s Witnesses produce millions of books, magazines, tracts, DVD’s every month, in more than 500 languages,.. and all this is distributed freely to all who are interested.
They are the only ones who are fully organised and equipped to share the Good news of Gods Kingdom to all people around the world.
Kindest regards, Emeth , The Netherlands, Europe
Sello Rasephei said
Emeth, thanks for your response.
Let me make it clear that I am impressed by the fact that Jehovah Witnesses are willing to evangelise, and they believe their religion to be factual which motivates them to evangelise. I wish my fellow Christians believed in the biblical truths enough to go out and evangelise. As you can get from my post, I’m very disappointed at my fellow believers, but I’m not surprised because most of them are not born-again to begin with as they claim to be. I think that’s the difference between them and you. Everybody who fellowships at Jehovah Witness’ church is a Jehovah Witness, but not everybody who goes to a Christian church is a Christian. Statistics from different sources claim that only 5% of all people who claim to be Christians are actually Christians, and my view is that this figure is too inflated, so we are probably looking at 1% at best. The comment I made about people not willing to evangelise was to prove that only a few Christians amongst others are actually born-again, hence only a few are willing to evangelise.
The main issue here is that there is no truth to what you guys believe and teach, and can be easily proven as I did to your fellow colleagues. (By the way, why do you guys take people’s phone numbers when you don’t have intentions of meeting up with them again, or is it for statistics purposes so you can claim them as convert?). With all respect Emeth, the truth is not on you side, and it breaks my heart to see people being so committed to falsehood. You probably was raised in the church, as my friend Barry was, so you have never evaluated the truth objectively, but I beg you to look for the truth in the bible.
For instance, look at what Revelations 20:8 says, and ask yourself why you continue believing that there is no resurrection of the dead, or hell for that matter when it is very clear in the NWT. You are probably taught that the book of Revelations is symbolic, but we know from all the other books of the bible that there is resurrection of the dead, heaven and hell. So why should you continue believing falsehood when the truth is there for you to see? Why should you continue deceiving people into thinking there is no afterlife when there is?
As much as Jehovah Witnesses evangelise, it pains me because they are pouring the judgement of God on their heads because they are misleading people. I would rather you not evangelise and save yourself judgement from God. Jesus warned against this, He said: “But if anyone causes one of these little ones who believe in me to sin, it would be better for him to have a large millstone hung around his neck and to be drowned in the depths of the sea” (Matthew 18:6). You are causing people to sin by not telling them the biblical truth, even as zealous as you are.
Repent to the true biblical truth, then your evangelism will bear fruit for the kingdom of God. Right now you are bearing fruit for the Kingdom Hall of Jehovah Witnesses, which leads people to hell, not the kingdom of God which leads to eternal life. Emeth, consider these things I have written.
emeth said
Dear Sello,
Dont worry about your phonenumber it wont be reported to the organisation
Neighter do we report ‘converts’ . We do keep track of monthly statistics such as the number of distributed magazines and books and the number of follow-up visits and bible studies we lead. But all these statistics are just anonymous numbers, no names or any other personal information is being shared or used.
Furthermore we think that people cant convert other people we can only assist in providing answers . To become a Jehovah’s Witness one must be qualified, it is not a proces that take a day,.. week or a month. It takes many months if not a year or longer to study the bible thoroughly and make the necessary moral behaviour change to become one of Jehovah’s Witnesses and be baptised. That explains for a part why our members are so comitted,.. they make a choice for life based on a long intense study and a lot of thought.
Contrary to what many believe a lot, if not most, of Jehovah’s Witnesses are not raised within this religion but came from different religious backgrounds, many of them from other christian denominations. They came from churches that all taught them the concept of Hell. So they are familiar with the dogma’s and biblical verses that are said to be the biblical evidence for those dogma’s.
Jehovah’s Witnesses know and preach that there will be a resurrection and judgement of the dead, but at the same time proclaim that a literal place of a fiery hell full of torment does not excist. It does not suit a ‘Loving’ god to torture human beings for eternity. ofcourse we are aware of the passage that you showed those witnesses. Question remains why do Jehovah’s Witnesses persist to maintain their belief despite those verses? To get a better answer on that i would like you to read something.
To give you and other readers the opportunity to get a clear view on our beliefs i like you to see a few articles concerning the hell.
What Has Happened to Hellfire?
http://www.watchtower.org/e/20020715/article_01.htm
What Really Is Hell?
http://www.watchtower.org/e/20020715/article_02.htm
Myth: The Wicked Suffer in Hell
http://www.watchtower.org/e/20091101/article_03.htm
All around the globe we use bible study aids, one of them is a book called ‘What does the bible really teach? ‘ Following these downloadlinks you can get a free PDF copy of the book in English and Zoeloe & Afrikaans
What does the bible really teach? (english pdf)
http://download.jw.org/files/media_books/bh_E.pdf
LIFUNDISANI Ngempela IBHAYIBHELI? (zoeloe pdf)
http://download.jw.org/files/media_books/bh_ZU.pdf
Wat leer die Bybel werklik? (afrikaans pdf)
http://download.jw.org/files/media_books/bh_AF.pdf
If you have further questions or if you would like to have more material on particular subjects i suggest you contact a local Kingdom Hall they will be happy to help you.
Kindest regards,
Emeth , The Netherlands
emeth said
Dear Sello,
While reviewing our upcoming issues of one of our international magazines i noticed that the Watchtower dated 1 March 2012 (which will be available as hardcopy from the beginning of next month) is perfect on/topic and interesting reading material.
Titled `What Are the Marks of True Christianity?´
Below you find downloadlinks to the PDF files in several languages of South Africa.
What Are the Marks of True Christianity? (english)
http://download.jw.org/files/media_magazines/wp_E_20120301.pdf
Wat is die kenmerke van die ware Christelike geloof? (afrikaans)
http://download.jw.org/files/media_magazines/wp_AF_20120301.pdf
Ke Matsoao Afe a Khethollang Bakreste ba’ Nete? (sesotho)
http://download.jw.org/files/media_magazines/wp_SU_20120301.pdf
Hi Yihi Mimfungho Ya Vakreste Va Ntiyiso? (tsonga)
http://download.jw.org/files/media_magazines/wp_TS_20120301.pdf
Matshwao a Bokeresete Jwa Boammaaruri Ke Afe? (tswana)
http://download.jw.org/files/media_magazines/wp_TN_20120301.pdf
Ungawabona Ngani AmaKristu Eqiniso? (zulu)
http://download.jw.org/files/media_magazines/wp_ZU_20120301.pdf
Ziziphi Iimpawu Ezibonisa UbuKristu Bokwenyaniso? (xhosa)
http://download.jw.org/files/media_magazines/wp_XO_20120301.pdf
Kindest regards, Emeth
Sello Rasephei said
I read your tracts about hell, and all they are saying is that hell is symbolic, but they can’t even provide any biblical evidence that hell is symbolic and no a real place of torment. They take the best explanation of hell found in Revelations 21:8 and they say it’s just symbolic. Have you read it yourself? What’s symbolic about this: “But the cowardly, the unbelieving, the vile, the murderers, the sexually immoral, those who practice magic arts, the idolaters and all liars—their place will be in the fiery lake of burning sulfur. This is the second death.”
Where is symbolism? The bible makes it clear that this is a “place”, and that it’s a “lake”, which is “burning” with “sulfur”. It also makes it clear that it will be the “second” “death”.
You would have to be really good at twisting scripture to suggest the existence of symbolism in this text. My question to you is “why do Jehovah Witnesses have such a problem with the existence of hell”?
emeth said
Dear Sello,
No twists are needed. The bible itself answers if one allows it to answer. Fact is we dont have a problem with the existence of hell. Hell, in the Biblical sense, is simply the common grave of mankind, where all activity has ceased. The bible is full of evidence to support that. The question is whether or not a person accepts the biblical truth. One should ask himself. Is what i have been taught in my church the same as is taught in the bible? In other words, what does the bible really teach?
Did the Almighty God create such a literal place of torment? Well, what was God’s view when the Israelites, following the example of peoples who lived nearby, began to burn their children in fire?
He explains in his Word: “They have built the high places of Topheth, which is in the valley of the son of Hinnom, in order to burn their sons and their daughters in the fire, a thing that I had not commanded and that had not come up into my heart.”—Jeremiah 7:31
Think about this. If the idea of roasting people in fire had never come into God’s heart, does it seem reasonable that he created a fiery hell for those who do not serve him? Would a loving God really torment people forever? Would you do so?
This teaching dishonors God. Jehovah is a God of love and would never make people suffer in this way. (1 John 4:8) How would you feel about a man who punished a disobedient child by holding his hands in a fire? Would you respect such a man? In fact, would you even want to get to know him? Definitely not! You would likely think that he was very cruel.
Yet, according to you,… God tortures people in fire forever—for countless billions of years! How can the God who tells us in the Bible that we are to love our enemies wish to torture his enemies for eternity?
Further, if Adam had been created with an immortal soul that would be tormented forever in a fiery hell if he sinned, why was he not warned about this? Why was he only told that he would die and return to dust? If the real result of sin for Adam was to be, not death, ‘returning to the dust,’ but eternal suffering, in all justice should God not have explained this clearly?
(Genesis 2:16, 17) 16 And Jehovah God also laid this command upon the man: “From every tree of the garden you may eat to satisfaction. 17 But as for the tree of the knowledge of good and bad you must not eat from it, for in the day you eat from it you will positively die.”
With all respect but i see nothing there about hell and eternal suffering,.. do you?
If God had purposed to punish them in that way, surely he should have warned them to that effect. Jehovah would then have said to Adam: ‘If you eat of the fruit of the tree of the knowledge of good and bad you will go to hell and be tormented forever and ever.’ But God said nothing of the sort. Then did he change the penalty for the crime after it had been committed? Why, even imperfect men realize that to be unjust. Surely God is not less just than man, is He?—Gen. 18:25.
Even a blind man can see that it would be unfair to condemn Adam to an eternity of torture for disobedience, yet not warn him about it! However, the bible tell us that with God “there is no injustice.” (Deuteronomy 32:4)
It was the Devil who told Eve: “You positively will not die.” (Genesis 3:4 ) But she did die; no part of her lived on. That the soul lives on after death is a lie started by the Devil. And it is also a lie, which the Devil has had spread, that the souls of the wicked are tormented in a hell or a purgatory.
What is the condition of the dead according to the bible?
(Ecclesiastes 9:5) . . .. “For the living are conscious that they will die; but as for the dead, they are conscious of nothing at all”,. . . (Psalm 146:4) . . “he goes back to his ground; In that day his thoughts do perish.”
Jesus Christ spoke also about the condition of the dead. He did so with regard to Lazarus, a man whom he knew well and who had died. Jesus told his disciples: “Lazarus our friend has gone to rest.” The disciples thought that Jesus meant that Lazarus was resting in sleep, recovering from an illness. They were wrong. Jesus explained: “Lazarus has died.” (John 11:11-14)
Notice that Jesus compared death to rest and sleep. Lazarus was neither in heaven nor in a burning hell. He was not meeting angels or ancestors. He was at rest in death, as though in a deep sleep without dreams. Other scriptures also compare death to sleep. For example, when the disciple Stephen was stoned to death, the Bible says that he “fell asleep.” (Acts 7:60) Similarly, the apostle Paul wrote about some in his day who had “fallen asleep” in death.—1 Corinthians 15:6.
Ok lets summarize,.. God dislikes roasting people, the idea did not even came up in his heart. Adam, the first human, was not warned at all.. God told him he would die, not that he would be tormented for ever and ever in a fiery place. Furthermore the bible teaches us that the dead know nothing, are not conscious and that their thoughts simply perish. They cease to exist. Even Jesus himself compared being dead with resting in sleep.
This leaves us with several reasons why a literal interpretation of a fiery hell is not right. (1) because it is unreasonable; (2) because it is repugnant to justice; (3) because it is contrary to the principle of love; and (4) because it is entirely unscriptural.
What happens with people who continue to sin? Is the bible clear on that? What does the bible say? (Ezekiel 18:4) . . .The soul that is sinning—it itself will die. . . (Romans 6:23) 23 ”For the wages sin pays is death, . . .” No further punishment in Hell?
Hmmm ,… No. . .For he who has died has been acquitted from [his] sin. . . (Romans 6:7)
Its death or everlasting life, we have to make the same choice as Adam had to make. Its not a choice between Everlasting life in paradise and Everlasting life in Hell. The bible does not teach that.
(John 17:3) 3 This means everlasting life, their taking in knowledge of you, the only true God, and of the one whom you sent forth, Jesus Christ.
(Matthew 7:13) 13 “Go in through the narrow gate; because broad and spacious is the road leading off into destruction. . . (Or, “annihilation.” Greek., a·po′lei·an.)
(2 Thessalonians 1:8, 9) . . .. 9 These very ones will undergo the judicial punishment of everlasting destruction. . .
Its everlasting life versus destruction/annihilation. When fire is mentioned in the Holy Scriptures it indicates complete destruction, not eternal torment; as, for instance, in 2 Thessalonians 1:7-9
And that is how our world knows the phenomenon fire too. Or do you go out for a night at the movies if you see that you house is on fire? Do you say at such a moment… I will call the fire department later cause this house will burn forever and still remain as untouched? Ofcourse not. We all know that fire is destructive.. that it is all consuming and lethal. That is why it is used often in biblical language.
Another question we could ask is,… What sort of people go to the Bible hell? Good or Bad people,.. or both?
When Jacob was mourning for his beloved son Joseph, who he thought had been killed, he said: “I shall go down mourning to my son into Sheol!” (Genesis 37:35) However, the King James Version here translates Sheol “grave,” and the Douay Version translates it “hell.” Now, stop for a moment and think. Did Jacob believe that his son Joseph went to a place of torment to spend eternity there, and did he want to go there and meet him? Or, rather, was it that Jacob merely thought that his beloved son was dead and in the grave and that Jacob himself wanted to die?
Yes, good people go to the Bible hell. For example, the good man Job, who was suffering a great deal, prayed to God: “O that in Sheol [grave, King James Version; hell, Douay Version] you would conceal me, . . . that you would set a time limit for me and remember me!” (Job 14:13) Now think: If Sheol means a place of fire and torment, would Job wish to go and spend his time there until God remembered him? Clearly, Job wanted to die and go to the grave that his sufferings might end.
Of Jesus Christ the Bible says that he was in hell three days and was redeemed from there. Peter said of Christ: “That his soul was not left in hell, neither his flesh did see corruption.” Jonah was another man that was in hell and got out alive unsinged. When swallowed by a big fish, Jonah said: “Out of the belly of hell cried I.” Where was Jonah? In the fish’s belly and there is no fire there.
So here is shown that all who die end up in the biblical hell. The good and the bad. Would that make sense if hell was a place of eternal torture?
The teaching that souls suffer in hell promotes a morbid fear of God. By contrast, a person who learns the truth about God and comes to love him will develop a healthy fear of him. “The fear of the LORD is the beginning of wisdom; prudent are all who live by it,” explains Psalm 111:10. (The New American Bible) This fear of God is, not abject terror, but awe of and profound reverence for the Creator.
Cultivating love for God and a healthy fear of him—not fear of torment in hell—can motivate us to do God’s will in order to enjoy lasting happiness. The psalmist wrote: “Blessed is every one that feareth Jehovah, that walketh in his ways.”—Psalm 128:1
In order to find the truth sometimes we are forced to dig deep. The truth is in the bible,.. not in one of the 66 books but in all of them. And the bible cannot contradict itself since it is Gods own word. So if it comes to teachings all books must be in agreement with eachother.
(John 8:47) . . .He that is from God listens to the sayings of God. . .
(2 Timothy 3:16, 17) . . .All Scripture is inspired of God and beneficial for teaching, for reproving, for setting things straight, for disciplining in righteousness, 17 that the man of God may be fully competent, completely equipped for every good work.
The Psalmist wrote . . .The substance of your word is truth,. . . (Psalm 119:160) and Jesus affirmed by saying . . .your word is truth. . .(John 17:17)
Note that the only scriptures that Jesus and the first christians had, used and referred to at that time were the Hebrew Scriptures (old testament). See for example (Acts 17:10, 11) Those Beroeans mentioned in Acts were not ‘browsing’ the Apocalypse of John or any other scripture from the New testament (since all that was not written yet).
A fiery Hell full of torture was not in their ‘bible’,.. Adam was not warned,.. The world at Noahs time was not warned for a hell and according to scripture it was certainly not their destination. The people of Israel were not warned when they got the ten commandments and signed the covenant with God. Jehovah warned them for all kinds of punishments but nothing came close to an everlasting torture pit.
Jesus said; (John 8:31, 32) 31 “If YOU remain in my word, YOU are really my disciples, 32 and YOU will know the truth, and the truth will set YOU free.”
The truth will set you free…. indeed! The truth puts a firehose on a demonic teaching that tries to sell us a God who has lower moral standards, less love and compassion than us humans by portraying him as the God who enjoys torturing people for ever and ever.
As i told you in an earlier post no human can convert another human. Jesus said; 44 “No man can come to me unless the Father, who sent me, draws him” . . .(John 6:44) He also told us what kind of attitudes were most receptive for his message and Kingdom.
Jesus said: “Let the young children come to me; do not try to stop them, for the kingdom of God belongs to suchlike ones. Truly I say to you, Whoever does not receive the kingdom of God like a young child will by no means enter into it.”
To receive God’s Kingdom, people must imitate the humility and teachableness of young children.
All the above showed that the Bible does not teach a literal Hell full of torture. Instead of that biblical evidence points overwelmingly that the end of it all is death, destruction & complete annihilation (there are dozens more verses in the bible which support that).
The rest of the bible makes a literal reading of Revelation impossible since it would mean that the bible would contradict itself. But there is more that shows it must be a symbolic instead of a literal interpretation.
First of all everyone will agree that Revelation is a book (as wikipedia and authoritive sources descibe it) of ‘vivid symbolism’. To name a few things its about a dragon and serpent, its about a lamb, about a false prophet, about babylon, its about angels with bowls, its about a bride, a harlot, a wild beast, torturing locusts, seals and coloured horses.
So take this serpent, dragon who is better know as Satan. God made him a promise long long time ago in the garden of eden. It was the first recorded prophecy. “ And I shall put enmity between you and the woman and between your seed and her seed. He will bruise you in the head and you will bruise him in the heel.” – Genesis 3:15
God did not promise Satan an eternal torment in hell but a fatal headblow. This prophecy will be fullfilled in (Revelation 20:10) “And the Devil who was misleading them was hurled into the lake of fire and sulphur, where both the wild beast and the false prophet [already were]; and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.”
What does this mean? When Jesus was on earth jailers were at times called “tormentors.” As Jesus said of a certain man in one of his illustrations: “And his lord was wroth, and delivered him to the tormentors, till he should pay all that was due unto him.” (Matthew 18:34, King James Version) Since those who are thrown into “the lake of fire” go into “second death” from which there is no resurrection, they are, so to speak, jailed forever in death. They remain in death as though in the custody of jailers for all eternity. The wicked, of course, are not literally tormented because, as we have seen, when a person is dead he is completely out of existence. He is not conscious of anything.
But what about that lake of fire? Notice how the Bible itself says this at Revelation 20:14: “And death and Hades [hell, King James Version and Douay Version] were hurled into the lake of fire. This means the second death, the lake of fire.” Yes, the lake of fire means “second death,” the death from which there is no resurrection.
It is evident that this “lake” is a symbol, because death and hell (Hades) are thrown into it. Death and hell cannot literally be burned they are no beings, cannot feel, are not conscious. But they can, and will, be done away with, or destroyed.
Besides the biblical evidence against a literal hell full of torment it wouldnt hurt you if you studied what the origin of the english word hell is. Webster’s Third New International Dictionary, unabridged, under “Hell” says: “fr[om] . . . helan to conceal.” The word “hell” thus originally conveyed no thought of heat or torment but simply of a ‘covered over or concealed place.’ In the old English dialect the expression “helling potatoes” meant, not to roast them, but simply to place the potatoes in the ground or in a cellar.
Finally, i assume you know that the word Hell itself cannot be found in the bible. In the King James Version the word “hell” is rendered from sheʼohl′ 31 times and from hai′des 10 times. This version is not consistent, however, since sheʼohl′ is also translated 31 times “grave” and 3 times “pit.” In the Douay Version sheʼohl′ is rendered “hell” 64 times, “pit” once, and “death” once.
Concerning this use of “hell” to translate these original words from the Hebrew and Greek, Vine’s Expository Dictionary of Old and New Testament Words (1981, Vol. 2, p. 187) says: “HADES . . . It corresponds to ‘Sheol’ in the O.T. [Old Testament]. In the A.V. of the O.T. [Old Testament] and N.T. [New Testament], it has been unhappily rendered ‘Hell.’”
Collier’s Encyclopedia (1986, Vol. 12, p. 28) says concerning “Hell”: “First it stands for the Hebrew Sheol of the Old Testament and the Greek Hades of the Septuagint and New Testament. Since Sheol in Old Testament times referred simply to the abode of the dead and suggested no moral distinctions, the word ‘hell,’ as understood today, is not a happy translation.”
The God that i worship does not torture humans forever and ever. I worship a God named, “Jehovah, a God merciful and gracious, slow to anger and abundant in loving-kindness and truth, 7 preserving loving-kindness for thousands, pardoning error and transgression and sin” – Exodus 34:6
“Who is a God like you, one pardoning error and passing over transgression of the remnant of his inheritance? He will certainly not hold onto his anger forever, for he is delighting in loving-kindness.” – (Micah 7:18)
reasons why a literal interpretation of a fiery hell is not right. (1) because it is unreasonable; (2) because it is repugnant to justice; (3) because it is contrary to the principle of love; and (4) because it is entirely unscriptural.
What kind of God do you worship Sello,… one that tortures and does far more ugly things than the worst human war criminals ever did? Like Jesus said,…’The Truth will set you Free’
Kindest regards, Emeth
Sello Rasephei said
Emeth, you have said absolutely nothing of quality in your rebuttal, it’s just long. Nobody disputes that dead people (first death) have no ‘conscious’ in that they are dead from this life. The issue is here that people will be resurrected to live again, either in hell or heaven. I gave you one verse (Revelations 21:8) that is not complicated which spells hell very clearly, and you didn’t touch on it at all. The whole Watchtower publications don’t touch on this verse, except to say that it’s symbolic. So it’s up to you to show symbolism here, which you didn’t, rather you touch on verses that have nothing to do with what we are disputing.
You mention Lazarus, but isn’t it weird that you dont’ mention that the rich man who knew Lazarus went to a place of torment AFTER he died? The bible says “The time came when the beggar died and the angels carried him to Abraham’s side. The rich man ALSO DIED and was BURIED. In hell, where HE WAS IN TORMENT, he looked up and saw Abraham far away, with Lazarus by his side.” (Luke 16:22-23). Is there symbolism as well, because you didn’t touch on this?
To suggest that God won’t send people to hell (1) because it is unreasonable; (2) because it is repugnant to justice; (3) because it is contrary to the principle of love; and (4) because it is entirely unscriptural, is really clutching at straws. It’s like suggesting that a magistrate can’t send a criminal to death row because it’s unreasonable, repugnant to justice, and not loving. I guess you don’t think judges and magistrates are loving people, which is why they send people to jail and death row.
Hell is an expression of God’s love and justice. A loving God won’t let criminals like Hitler get away with 10million murders. To suggest that God should let Hitler off the hook is to suggest that God should have no sense of justice and be corrupt.
Roman Catholics suppress the second commandment because they are guilty of breaking it, and Jehovah Witnesses suppress hell because it’s people are subject to it. That’s how cults work, they suppress the truth and make it look SYMBOLIC. Repent from this believe that reject God’s role as lawgiver and judge.
James 4:12
There is only one Lawgiver and Judge, the one who is able to save and destroy.
emeth said
You wrote; “I gave you one verse (Revelations 21:8) that is not complicated which spells hell very clearly, and you didn’t touch on it at all.”
Dear Sello,
Although i did touch it , for you i will touch it some more. The symbolic nature of revelation 21:8
“The lake of fire” into which death, Hades, the symbolic “wild beast” and “the false prophet,” Satan, his demons, and the persistent practicers of wickedness on earth are cast. The expression occurs only in the book of Revelation and is clearly symbolic. The Bible gives its own explanation and definition of the symbol by stating: “This means the second death, the lake of fire.”—Re 20:14; 21:8.
The symbolic quality of the lake of fire is further evident from the context of references to it in the book of Revelation. Death is said to be hurled into this lake of fire. (Re 20:14, 20) Death obviously cannot be literally burned. Moreover, the Devil, an invisible spirit creature, is thrown into the lake. Being spirit, he cannot be hurt by literal fire.—Re 20:10; compare Ex 3:2 and Jg 13:20.
Since the lake of fire represents “the second death” and since Revelation 20:14 says that both “death and Hades” are to be cast into it, it is evident that the lake cannot represent the death man has inherited from Adam (Ro 5:12), nor does it refer to Hades (Sheol). It must, therefore, be symbolic of another kind of death, one that is without reversal, for the record nowhere speaks of the “lake” as giving up those in it, as do Adamic death and Hades (Sheol). (Re 20:13) Thus, those not found written in “the book of life,” unrepentant opposers of God’s sovereignty, are hurled into the lake of fire, meaning eternal destruction, or the second death.—Re 20:15.
While the foregoing texts make evident the symbolic quality of the lake of fire, it has been used by some persons to support belief in a literal place of fire and torment. Revelation 20:10 has been appealed to, because it speaks of the Devil, the wild beast, and the false prophet as being “tormented day and night forever and ever” in the lake of fire. However, this cannot refer to actual conscious torment. Those thrown into the lake of fire undergo “the second death.” (Re 20:14) In death there is no consciousness and, hence, no feeling of pain or suffering.—Ec 9:5.
In the Scriptures fiery torment is associated with destruction and death. For example, in the Greek Septuagint translation of the Hebrew Scriptures the word for torment (ba′sa·nos) is several times used with reference to punishment by death. (Eze 3:20; 32:24, 30) Similarly, concerning Babylon the Great, the book of Revelation says, “the kings of the earth . . . will weep and beat themselves in grief over her, when they look at the smoke from the burning of her, while they stand at a distance because of their fear of her torment [Gr., ba·sa·ni·smou′].” (Re 18:9, 10) As to the meaning of the torment, an angel later explains: “Thus with a swift pitch will Babylon the great city be hurled down, and she will never be found again.” (Re 18:21) So, fiery torment here is parallel with destruction, and in the case of Babylon the Great, it is everlasting destruction.—Compare Re 17:16; 18:8, 15-17, 19.
Therefore, those who are ‘tormented forever’ (from Gr., ba·sa·ni′zo) in the lake of fire undergo “second death” from which there is no resurrection. The related Greek word ba·sa·ni·stes′ is translated ‘jailer’ in Matthew 18:34. (RS, NW, ED; compare vs 30.) Thus those hurled into the lake of fire will be held under restraint, or “jailed,” in death throughout eternity.
So far Revelation 21:8,.. i will touch other parts of your reply some other time.
Kindest regards, Emeth
Sello Rasephei said
The lake of fire can’t be symbolic on the basis that it’s only mentioned in the book of Revelations. Mathew 13:42 mentions “FIERY FURNACE, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth”, which is similar to the lake of fire. Psalm 11:6 also mentions “fiery coals and BURNING sulfur”. So to suggest that a place where people would be burnt is symbolic is clutching at straws, since it’s mentioned elsewhere in the bible and not only in the Revelations 21:8. So your symbolism idea fails.
Firstly, I have showed you that the expression in Revelations 21:8 is not only in the book of Revelations but found everywhere in the bible. Isaiah 66:24 makes it clear that people will burn, it says “nor will their FIRE be quenched”. This is as clear as it gets, and it’s NOT in the book of Revelations. So you have failed to dismiss this doctrine as Revelations symbolism. Even the man in Lazarus story is also burning in hell, the point which you fail to even look at, even though you are the one who brought the Lazarus story into the picture.
You keep referring to Ecclesiastes 9:5, but we are beyond the point of the first death, since we both believe in the resurrection of the dead, which is what the bible teaches. So what is it that you are trying to prove by bringing up Ecclesiastes 9:5? Of course dead people won’t feel pain, but dead people would be resurrected so they can feel pain. Do you understand this point?
You can’t use the same book of Revelations to make a point, and then when it contradicts you then claim that it’s symbolic. If you are uncomfortable with the Book of Revelations then it’s fine, but I have just showed you what the rest of the bible says.
What else is not symbolic to you in the bible, since every scripture that talks about hell is symbolic?
Lungisa said
I will be glad if Emeth can shed some light on the lake of fire being symbolic, in connection with Revelation 20:10 “And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever”
Explain:
1) The meaning of the “lake of fire” and “brimstone/sulfur”
2) How come that the devil, the beast and the false prophet “…shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.”
3) The meaning of “shall be tormented day and night”, and how does it fit in the “lake of fire” symbolism?